Early flowering identified- 12 weeks seed to seed

[dfollett]

What generation are you with that cross? Is there a specific fruit you are trying for or are you looking to see what that kind of genetic diversity produces?

Not knowing exactly what I am doing, it appears I have taken a somewhat similar approach. I've seen how breeders often take what I would call a 'rifle' approach. They have a specific objective, then they select specific parents they expect to produce the qualities they are after. I didn't know enough about genetics to select anything specific, so I took more of a 'shotgun' approach. I used a much diversity as I could find, hoping something would work. I just wanted something interesting and good in a micro.

I made micro crosses with two varieties I haven't followed up on, but sound similar to what you have. One was with (Red Robin X Rose Quartz multiflora F4) X (OSU P20 X S. pimpinellifolium F1). The other was the same mama with Columbianum. Columbianum itself produced extremely tasty small red fruits. The problem I had with Columbianum was the fruit didn't pick well. Every fruit I picked left a hole where the stem connected. they didn't separate cleanly wouldn't keep.

It seems we're having this conversation in a couple of different places. Maybe you could start a thread about your project. It's something I'd like to follow. This isn't just a micro forum.

[DrTomato]

Yes, three of the four varieties are cultivated tomato (S. lycopersicum). There are about 13-17 related wild species (some keep getting reclassified), most of which aren't edible. The currant tomato (red, yellow, and white), S. pimpinellifolium, is probably the only one you've seen; it's sometimes sold as a novelty tomato like other heirlooms in seed catalogs and farmer's markets. They're not great for mass commercial production but do taste good. It's the domesticated tomato's closest relative and they easily cross. This isn't to be confused with Matt's Wild Cherry, which is still the cultivated species but a wild form.

For this project I'm using one of the two species native to the Galapagos Islands. It's S. cheesmanii and the variety is just called "Galapagos". The other three varieties, all cultivated species, are Tim's Black Ruffles, Garden Peach, and Plum Tigris. I wanted a huge variety in phenotype so it includes different fruit colors, shape, and size, one determinate, a striping gene, and fuzzy fruit. Despite the huge number of tomato varieties, there's actually very little genetic diversity in the cultivated species, so Galapagos adds to the genetics a bit.

Honestly I started this 7 years ago, and if I were doing it again I would probably pick something other than Tim's and Plum Tigris. I think there are comparable varieties that have a little better fruit quality. There are also a couple other species I could have used. Galapagos is a great tasting variety with good yield, but for some reason it always shows nutrient deficiency until it gets above 3-4' tall before growing out of it. It's consistently done this every year when all the other plants are fine. I don't know if that's common for the variety or if mine just picked up a mutation early on; I usually only save seed from a single plant. The fruit also usually gets some disease spots but nothing too bad.

[SeanInVa]

The MTDP is an umbrella project, with smaller more focused projects within. So, for example, if we were looking at someone running/leading a "early fruiting" project - I would be happy to create a new sub-forum here:

https://www.tomato-talk.com/forum/projects

[dfollett]

PM with address sent. You are right about the general objective giving people an idea what to start with. I have tried to do that as I have communicated with them before I send seed out. A lot of folks don't follow up. I've concluded that their not ready for the the diversity. I get lots of comments about sending 'so many seeds'. They probably plant a half dozen seeds and are disappointed when they don't get something great. I've started emphasizing that they need to start lots to get a few they'll want to grow.

What are the specifics of the other project. You mention two species. Forgive me, I've only recently taken some online genetics classes, but have never taken a biology class. Are you talking about a domestic tomato and a related wild species?

If you want additional F2 seed or have people who would want to see huge variation, I have F2 seed from many crosses between micros X indeterminate, micro X dwarf and micro X micro I'd be happy to share.

[DrTomato]

Yes I'll need your address and I will contact Heidi. You can send it to me in a private message or email if you still have that.

When I said "what you want" I meant that in very vague terms, like stating that you have 88X seeds and you're looking for people to grow them, or you're looking for volunteers to make a particular cross. That way if anyone wants to jump on a project or has some extra space, they have an easy starting point.

I like that there aren't always specific goals. It brings out creativity! My other (non-micro) project is a double hybrid cross of four phenotypically very different varieties representing two species. I'm bringing them to F2 and then giving away seed packets as a home breeding "starter kit". There should be huge variation and people can make selections over multiple generations to develop new varieties.

[dfollett]

Sure. I'd like to get a few. I'll make some crosses with other lines and leave 88X to you and Heidi. Do you need an address? Send a few to Heidi also if she wants some. Perhaps I can talk her into trying to make a cross. HL2601

You said to propose 'what you want', I'd suggest it should be what we want. I don't have specific targets other than something unique and good. My objectives are somewhat (probably too) vague i.e. a BLT worthy micro. That could be lots of different things to different people. Perhaps that's why I have 100's of crosses and no specific results. I need help finishing things.

If I'm not mistaken, Heidi is going to coordinate a couple of the crosses, including 88X. Please coordinate with her. SeanInVa Sean is setting it up to do just what you suggest. We just need to get on the same page.

Sean - point everyone in the right direction.

I just figured out who you are and what else I sent you. Please let me know what you think of the 33X F8 I sent you. That is the closest I have to something stable. It is a red carrot leaf that I quite like. I have some F9 seed I just saved from siblings to those I sent you.

[DrTomato]

I agree! Maybe you can set up a section where you propose what you want and ask for volunteers to replicate it.

Do you want any of the EF seeds right now? I still have quite a few F4 seeds.

[dfollett]

The "you ought to try a cross" was specifically directed toward HL2601 only because I got the impression she would like to try some but was hesitant. However, I mean them for everyone. I'd like to see others give it a try.

I'd like to see how that cross would be, I didn't realize you had any I had sent. You're in a perfect position to make the cross. Give it a go.

I send seed to real names and lose track of who's who once we get inside here. Somehow I'd like to get those growing the different crosses comparing notes and sharing seeds between each other. If three or four different people shared 88X seeds and grew them to compare, wouldn't we be more likely to find the best varieties to finally stabilize?

[DrTomato]

The gene for determinate/indeterminate growth is the self-pruning (sp) gene which is recessive, so all of the F1 would be indeterminate. In the F2 population, 3/4 would be indeterminate and 1/4 determinate, assuming no weird interactions are happening between the two parent plants.

[DrTomato]

Dan, can you please clarify if your comments are directed towards me (if any) and which are for HL2601?

Also, 88X is one of the lines you sent me, and I started some of those and my EF F4s at the same time a couple weeks ago. I could cross those when they're ready.

Thanks!

[DrTomato]

That was my thinking initially too, but the flowering started before they were showing signs of stress, and the F3s were actually transplanted outdoors (which I forgot to note in my post; most of the other lines were grown indoors, including the EF F2 plant); that's the generation that had 12-wk ripening. I'm pretty sure I remember then starting to flower by the time I transplanted. I also noticed that with my setup, even MicroTom is slower to fruit when grown in those small seedling cells compared to sowing directly in a larger pot.

It seems counter-intuitive but I'm wondering if maybe it's because the stress is enough to cause blossom drop or undeveloped flowers initially, and so the EF plants are able to escape that because they haven't been stressed yet. 2" is a really small pot for a full life cycle but that's just the space I have to work with.

[dfollett]

You ought to try a cross. It's not that difficult. I assume his cross is a regular leaf. Send me a few seeds from the good tasting F4 and I'll get them started. If he could send us a few seeds each, we could both give it a try. You will be surprised how easy it is. If you use a carrot leaf as the mama and his regular leaf as the pollen donor, you can know at the F1 seedling stage if the cross was successful.

[HL2601]

Another question- if we ever did a cross of yours, Dr Tomato, which is a determinate, with 88X which is a micro Indeterminate-would half be det. and half be indet.? Sorry if it is a silly question-newbie to tomato genetics here.

[HL2601]

Dan!! Raising hand here-my 88 F4's are up as seedlings...This could be a great cross since we know the flavor is good? Haven't dared to cross myself. You are the expert. Let me know if you want any seeds-

[Diane Whitehead]

Surely optimal conditions would slow things down - stressed plants would be desperate to fulfil their mission, but unstressed ones can luxuriate, growing bigger before fruiting.